Instead of technologies, talk about practicalities. Instead of separating developers from users, have discussions about innards where anyone interested is invited to have a look. This isn't about making things more accessible to end users, but helping the practice of making software more culturally grounded and relevant, opening the windows to let out the bad air. (in my opinion)
the developers and users should never be separated.

the user should feel free to pick up the keyboard and try to make something, it might not turn out very well but it may end up as something new and awesome that just needs a little bit of work from someone who knows what their doing.

the FSF prioritizing the freedoms of users while sacrificing the freedoms of developers i believe is doing more harm than good for the community whole.

@yaxu I don't know if this is a good idea.

If practicalities were the goal, we exclusively would have spyware from Google, Apple, Microsoft and Facebook all over the place, because people are too lazy to create an account and even want to get to spied on as exchange. They are overwhelmed by the freedom to choose (e.g. a server in XMPP).

@yaxu Another thing would be, that we wouldn't have efficient work flow on desktops, like tiling window managers (i3wm, dwm, etc.), because users avoid any learning curve.

Instead we would have clickable colorful windows, which you have to move by hand, not finding anything, because they are overlapping or hidden in "user friendly" GUIs.

@utopify_org @yaxu You are literally describing pragmatism. The issues you're describing are concrete, pragmatic issues.

*Niche* issues, yes, but the developer / user separation means (among other things) that only developers get their niche issues addressed.

@wizzwizz4 @yaxu For a moment I thought you called me pragmatic and I felt offended. :D But it's about the issues I described...

So will it really be a good thing to work on pragmatic software, instead of teaching people that it is better to confront them with a learning curve?

They don't even know what's better, because they only know one concept, the one from a big company and they want to have exactly that.

@wizzwizz4 @utopify_org Sounds interesting, but tbh I don't really know anything about pragmatism. I'm looking at the wikipedia page, but could you flesh out your point a bit please, or share some pointers to learning more?

@yaxu @utopify_org I mean pragmatism in the sense of, as a near-synonym for practicalness. (I had no idea it was the English name of a philosophical tradition.) I don't think I was saying anything you weren't.

@wizzwizz4 @utopify_org Ah that clears that up! I didn't know about the philosophical tradition either and thought I was missing something..
I wasn't too clear but my toot was more about avoiding words like 'technology' that are used in quite a meaningless way that just separates people from people who are at the controls and people who aren't.
A positive outcome from that could be more practical results, but the way I see it, software engineering communities are really sick places, and opening the doors on that can just make a nicer environment to work in.

@yaxu @wizzwizz4 I see pragmatism more as conservatism.

Always going the way, which was always taken. Always avoid learning new stuff, because old stuff is taken as granted. Even if there is prove that something new is better, go the traditional way.

It's like throwing the topic climate change to conservative politicians. There will be no interest in solving the problem and everything will stay the same.

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